Transcript: The Never-ending Story of Men and Women | Jan 13, 2016
Steve sits in the studio. He's slim, clean-shaven, in his fifties, with short curly brown hair. He's wearing a dark blue suit, a light blue shirt, and a matching blue tie. A caption below him reads “The Agenda. The never-ending story of men and women.” Behind him, a wall screen shows a book cover that reads “MEN by Laura Kipnis.” The main picture has a the word MEN in big capital yellow letters in the center with a magnifying glass over the E.
Steve says A CENTURY OF FEMINISM AND
RELATIONS BETWEEN MEN AND WOMEN
REMAIN A FRAUGHT TOPIC
AUTHOR LAURA KIPNIS KNOWS THAT
ALL TOO WELL
LAST YEAR FACING ANGRY
PROTESTS AT HER OWN UNIVERSITY
FOR A PROBING ESSAY SHE WROTE.
UNDAUNTED SHE JOIN US US NOW
WITH HER NORTHBOUND NEW BOOK,
“MEN: NOTES FROM AN ONGOING
INVESTIGATION.”
WITH THAT WE WELCOME LAURA
KIPNIS, PROFESSOR AT
NORTHWESTERN UNIVERSITY IN
CHICAGO.
YOU WERE ON 12 YEARS AGO.
YOU ARE ON AGAIN FOR ANOTHER
CONVERSATION.
Laura says THANK FOR HAVING ME ON.
UNDAUNTED.
THE LOGO.
She’s in her forties. She has short brown straight hair with an asymmetrical fringe and highlights. She wears a fitted black blazer over a grey blouse.
Steve says THERE ARE SOME PARTS
OF THE BOOK WHERE YOU USE BLUE
LANGUAGE.
I WANT TO TAKE THIS OPPORTUNITY
TO WARN PARENTS.
A quote appears on screen, under the title “ALL ABOUT ADAM.” The quote reads “Now that men have become less economically necessary and there’s less reason than ever to pretend to admire them, scorn for men has become the post-feminist fallback position, widely regarded as a badge of feistiness and independence. Nevertheless, men remain conduits to things a lot of women still deeply want: sex, love, babied, commitments...It’s a contradictory situation...but get a bunch of women in a room, add liquor, and jokes about men’s inadequacies fly like shrapnel. When it comes to dating, single men are dogs, infants, sex-obsessed, moral rodents or emotional incompetents. And once you finally land one, nothing much improves, since husbands are morons, selfish, workaholics, emotionally unavailable, and domestically unavailable. Single men lie and mislead to get sex, husbands have lost interest in sex entirely. Men are emotionally autistic, except for all the ones who want you to be their mother. Men can’t talk about their feelings! Except for all the ones who won’t shut up about them. They’re macho assholes, except when they’re wimps.” Quoted from “Laura Kipnis, ‘MEN’ (2015).”
Steve giggles and continues OKAY!
WELL, LAURA, GET OFF THE FENCE
AND TELL US WHAT YOU REALLY
THINK, FIRST OF ALL.
Laura says I WANT TO SAY THAT I WAS
JUST CHANNELING THE CULTURE
HERE.
I MYSELF HAVE COMPLETELY BENIGN
FEELINGS TOWARD ALL MEN.
Steve says A POINT WORTH
CLARIFYING THAT YOU ARE NOT.
DID WOMEN FEEL DIFFERENTLY ABOUT
MEN WHEN THEY WERE ECONOMICALLY
DEPENDENT ON THEM?
The caption changes to “Laura Kipnis. Author of the book Men.”
Then, it changes again to “The never-ending story of men and women. A tale of woes.”
Laura says I DON'T KNOW IF THEY FELT
DIFFERENTLY BUT THERE WERE LESS
VENUES FOR EXPRESSION OR
FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION.
IF YOU READ SOMEONE LIKE
DOROTHY PARKER THOUGH SHE WAS
ECONOMICALLY INDEPENDENT HER
SELF, I MEAN YOU CAN READ
PEOPLE FROM ALL THE GENERATIONS
WOMEN, I MEAN -- FROM ALL
THE 20th CENTURY AND HERE
THOSE KIND OF THINGS AT LEAST
IN THE SUBTEXT, IF NOT STATED
FORTHRIGHTLY.
I THINK THEY ARE PROBABLY STATED
MORE OPENLY NOW.
Steve says THERE SEEMS TO BE A
LOT OF SCORN NOW, THAT IS A
REGULAR FEATURE OF THE POST
FEMINIST POSITION.
WHY DO YOU THINK THAT IS.
Laura says I DO THINK THERE'S A SENSE
OF BEING FED UP WITH MEN THAT
YOU HEAR ARTICULATE ADD LOT
MORE.
IT MAY HAVE SOMETHING TO DO WITH
THE MORE ECONOMIC INDEPENDENCE
BUT I THINK IT ALSO HAS
SOMETHING TO DO WITH CHANGES IN
MALE CULTURE AS AS WELL AND WAYS
THAT MEN HAVE BECOME MORE --
MORE INDEPENDENT THEMSELVES AND
LESS LIKELY TO SIGN ON FOR SOME
OF THE TRADITIONAL ROLES THAT I
THINK A LOT OF WOMEN ACTUALLY
STILL WANT THEM TO PLAY, LIKE
FIANCE OR COMMITTED HUSBAND OR
BREAD WINNER.
SOME OF THOSE CHANGES ARE
ECONOMIC BUT I DO THINK THAT
THERE ARE CHANGES IN MEN'S
WILLINGNESS TO DEPART FROM THE
TRADITIONAL NARRATIVE TOO.
SO THERE'S MAYBE MORE MISMATCH
BETWEEN THE SEXES IN TERMS OF,
YOU KNOW, GETTING TOGETHER TO
SHARE SOME SORT OF COMMON
NARRATIVE.
Steve says BUT YOU DON'T DISLIKE
MEN YET YOU DO WRITE SOME STUFF
ABOUT THEY KNOW MEN THIS YOUR
BOOK MEN THAT NO MAN WOULD GET
AYE AWAY -- WOULD GET AWAY WITH
WRITING ABOUT WOMEN.
Laura says I DON'T KNOW IF YOU HAVE
READ SOME MALE NOVELISTS.
PHIL IMROTH, GREAT CHRONICLERS.
ALL GREAT WRITERS.
I THINK IT DEPENDS ON THE VENUE.
MEN HAVE BEEN SCATHING ABOUT
WOMEN OVER THE YEARS.
Steve says YOU WRITE WHAT
STRIKES ME MOST IS MY COVERT
ENVY OF MEN, INCLUDING ONES I
WOULD LIKE TO THRASH AND
DISMEMBER.
THAT'S A LITTLE CLOSE TO THE
EDGE, ISN'T IT, LAURA.
Laura says
OH, GOSH, I THOUGHT THAT WAS
AFTER FACIAL ATE.
IT WASN'T SO MUCH TRYING TO BE
POE LATE AS TO ARTICULATE THINGS
THAT I FEEL IS KIND OF DEEP FOR
ME.
I DON'T THINK I'M ALONE.
I THINK TO SOME EXTENT I'M
SPEAKING TO THINGS THAT MOST
WOMEN FEEL SOMEWHERE.
I TO THINK ON HE OWE I MEAN,
LET'S JUST GET OFF THE PRETENSE
ABOUT IT.
I THINK THAT FOR MEN AND WOMEN
IN THE CONTEXT OF
HETEROSEXUAL RELATIONS, LIKE I
SAID, THERE IS A LOT OF MUTUAL
DISAPPOINT AND KIND OF
ANTAGONISMS THAT GET EXPRESSED
IN DIFFERENT SORTS OF WAYS.
YOU KNOW, THE PASSAGE THAT YOU
READ AT THE BEGINNING IS A WAY
THAT WOMEN, IN THE GUISE OF
JOKING ABOUT MEN AND THEIR
FAILURE EXPRESS DISAPPOINTMENT.
BUT LOOK AT A NEW YORKER CARTOON
OR STAND UP COMEDIANS THEY ARE
SAYING A LOT OF THE SAME STUFF.
THERE'S A LOT OF VENUES AND
CONTEXTS WHERE IT GETS
ARTICULATED.
Steve says YOU DO HAVE A LINE
WHICH I HAVE TO GET
CLARIFICATION ON.
WOMEN TAKE MEN TOO SERIOUSLY AND
NOT SERIOUSLY ENOUGH.
WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?
Laura says WELL THE DISAPPOINTMENT
IF YOU READ IT, DIALECTICALLY,
THE EXPRESSION IS TO DIE FOR
SOMETHING THAT IS NOT BEING
FULFILLED.
I THINK IN THE CONTEXT OF
HETEROSEXUAL CULTURE THERE IS ON
THE PART OF WOMEN THE DESIRE FOR
MEN TO FULFILL, TO PLAY A ROLE
IN OUR LIVES, IN OUR ROMANTIC
LIVES, IN OUR FUTURES, IN OUR
DOMESTIC LIVES, ALL OF THAT, AND
TO THE EXTENT THAT MEN ARE
WILLING TO PLAY ALONG, OKAY,
THAT'S GREAT, BUT I DO THINK
MORE AND MORE BECAUSE OF A LOT
OF SHIFTING ISSUES IN THE
CULTURE AT LARGE, THE ECONOMIC
SHIFTS, WOMEN ENTERING THEIR
PROFESSIONS, YOU KNOW, ALL SORTS
OF STUFF, WOMEN LEAVING
MARRIAGES AT HIGHER RATES, THERE
JUST ARE THESE -- THERE'S A KIND
OF LEVEL OF FRACTIOUSNESS AND
MUTUAL SENSES, I THINKS, OF NOT
GETTING WHAT YOU WANT FROM THE
OTHER PERSON.
YOU KNOW, I THINK THAT -- FROM
THE OPPOSITE SEX, LET'S SAY.
SO I GUESS I WAS TRYING TO
ARTICULATE THAT WHILE ALSO, YOU
KNOW, ACKNOWLEDGING -- THIS LINE
YOU READ ABOUT ME SAYING I'M
ENVIOUS OF MEN.
I MEAN, I AM ENVIOUS OF A LOT OF
THE KINDS OF FREEDOMS THAT MEN
HAVE HAD OVER THE YEARS AT ALL
LEVELS.
YOU KNOW, THE KINDS OF MOBILITY,
CREATIVE SORTS OF FREEDOMS.
I MENTIONED AN AUTHOR, AN
AMAZING AUTHOR.
AND ALSO PRETTY MISOGYNIST.
Steve says YOU USED THE WORD
DISAPPOINTMENT A FEW TIMES
ALREADY.
I'LL THROW THIS OUT AS A THEORY.
WOMEN ARE SO DISAPPOINTED IN MEN
BECAUSE THERE JUST AREN'T MEN
WOULD ARE PRINCELY, RESOURCEFUL,
CONFIDENT, MAKE A GOOD LIVING,
NOT THREATENED BY STRONG WOMEN,
ONLY HAVE EYES FOR THE WOMAN
THAT HE IS WITH.
IN OTHER WORDS, THE PERFECT GUY
JUST NEVER EXISTS, NEVER HAS,
NEVER WILL, AND AS A RESULT,
WOMEN ARE DISAPPOINTED.
FAIR COMMENT.
Laura says
WELL, I LIKE TO AVOID STUPID
GENERALIZATIONS.
IT'S AN ISSUE FOR ALL OF US.
PEOPLE ARE CONTRADICTORY.
INCLUDING THE PEOPLE WE END UP
WITH AS MATES, LIFE PARTNERS,
SPOUSES, WHATEVER YOU WANT TO
CALL IT.
THAT'S A FAILURE OF THE PERSON
TO BE WHAT YOU WANT THEM TO BE.
I GUESS I'M BEING IRONIC ABOUT
THOSE FAILURES THROUGHOUT THE
BOOK, BUT YOU KNOW, THEY ARE
REAL.
I THINK WE ALL HAVE THESE KINDS
OF NOT REALISTIC DESIRES OF
OTHER PEOPLE AND YOU KNOW, THAT
ACCOUNTS FOR A LOT OF, LIKE I
SAY, MARITAL DISCORD THAT YOU
SEE AROUND US.
Steve says OKAY.
ONE OF THE THINGS I KIND OF
LIKE, IS YOUR, I GUESS,
CONFESSION IS THE WORD TO USE
HERE, THAT YOU ARE QUOTE DRAWN
TO MEN, DRAWN TO EXCESS TO MEN
WHO LAUGH TOO LOUD, DRINK TOO
MUCH, HAVE OFF KILTER POLITICS
AND IDEAS.
AFTER AS MANY BOOKS AS YOU HAVE
WRITTEN NOW, DO YOU HAVE ANY
IDEA WHY YOU ARE DRAWN TO SUCH
DISREPUTABLE CHARACTERS.
Laura says I THINK BECAUSE I'M SUCH A
DEMURE PERSON.
IT'S MY OTHER SIDE OF MYSELF
THAT I KEEP UNDER WRAPS I GUESS.
I MEAN, I CAN ONLY SPECULATE
BECAUSE I THINK THOSE SORTS OF
DEEP, YOU KNOW PARTS OF YOURSELF
ARE NOT MAYBE ONES THAT YOU HAVE
ACCESS TO.
I GUESS I'VE GOTTEN ALONG ENOUGH
IN YEARS THAT I CAN LOOK BACK
AND SEE A SORT OF PATTERN.
Steve says I SHOULD HAVE RUSHED
TO THE DICTIONARY TO UNDER THE
NEXT THING THAT YOU WROTE HERE
BUT I DIDN'T BECAUSE I FIGURED
I'D ASK YOU DIRECTLY.
YOU CALL SOME OF THESE MEN, IS
IT PHALLOCRATIC DIVAS.
WHAT DOES IT MEAN.
The caption changes to “The never-ending story of men and women. Phallocratic divas.”
Laura says I GUESS IT IS PHALLOCENTRIC,
ELEVATING THEM TO THE KINGLY
POSITION THAT MEN WOULD WANT IT
TO BE.
Steve says HOW DIFFERENT IS THAT
KIND OF MAIL DIVA FROM HIS
FEMALE COUNTER PART IN.
Laura says
I MEAN, IT'S FUNNY YOU PICK
ON THAT PHRASE BECAUSE TO MY
MIND THERE'S A HUMOUR IN THE
FORMULATION BECAUSE DIVA IS WE
THINK OF A FEMALE FIGURE LIKE
THE OPERA FIGURE, SO TO CALL A
MAN A DIVA IS ALREADY KIND OF
FEMME NICING HIM BUT TO CALL
HIM A PHALLOCRATIC DIVA GAVE ME
PLEASURE BECAUSE IT'S A NEW
OXYMORON.
YOU PICKED OUT A MISH MASH OF
GENDER POSITIONS THAT DON'T
EXACTLY GO TOGETHER BUT YET I
THOUGHT WERE FUN.
IT'S LIKE THE TERM MALE HYSTERIC
WHICH IS ANOTHER TERM I'M FOND
OF.
WE THINK OF HYSTERIA AS A FEMALE
TRAIT.
Steve says I'VE GOT TO CONFESS,
ONE OF THE MORE INTERESTING
CHAPTERS IN THE BOOK, I
THOUGHT, IS WHERE YOU SAID SOME
PRETTY NICE THINGS ABOUT A GUY
NAMED LARRY LIBERTARIAN.
LARRY FLYNT TORQUES THE BEST OF
MY KNOWLEDGE, PUBLICS ONE OF THE
RAUNCHIEST MAGAZINES IN AMERICAN
HISTORY, HUSBANDLER HUSTLER
MAGAZINE SO I AM CURIOUS WHAT
QUALITIES HE HAS THAT YOU FIND
INTERESTING AND COMPELLING.
Laura says I SHOULD SAY THAT I HAVE A
WEIRD HISTORY WITH LARRY FLYNT.
I HAD WRITTEN ABOUT HIM.
I GOT VERY INTERESTED IN HUSTLER
MAGAZINE AND THE WAY IT USES
CLASS, CLASS ANTAGONISM, USING
PROPERTIES, PARTICULARLY
FEMINIST PROPERTIES.
THE TIME I WAS WRITING IT THE
FEMINIST MOVEMENT BASS VERY BIG
AND I THOUGHT THEY WERE NOT
TAKING ACCOUNT OF CLASS AND THE
KINDS OF WAYS CLASS CIRCULATES
IN A MAGAZINE LIKE HUSTLER.
I WROTE THIS AND WEIRDLY IT GOT
READ BY LARRY FLINT.
HIS GOAT WRITER GAVE IT TO HIM.
I HEARD FROM THE GHOST WRITER
THAT LARRY FLYNT HAD LIKED IT,
WOULD I LIKE TO MEET HIM.
I DID END UP MEETING HIM.
ALSO, WEIRDLY, THE GHOST WRITER
IN WRITING HIS AUTOBIOGRAPHY
USED SOME OF MY STUFF ABOUT HIM
AND PUT IT IN LARRY'S VOICE, AS
IF LARRY WAS SAYING THE THINGS
I SAID IN THE ESSAY.
ONE OF THE THINGS I SAID IN THE
PIECE IS I WISH ALL MEN HAD BEEN
SUCCESS ACCEPT ABLE TO ADAPTING
MY FAN AT ATIES ABOUT THEM.
I SORT OF FANTASIZED ABOUT WHO I
THOUGHT HE SHOULD BE AND HE
WON'T WITH IT WHICH I THOUGHT
WAS SORT OF CHARMING ON HIS
PART.
SO I WROTE A FEW OTHER THINGS
ABOUT HIM OVER THE YEARS AND MET
HIM A FEW TIMES.
I JUST BECAME FASCINATED WITH
HIM AS A FIGURE BECAUSE HE'S --
YOU KNOW, USES PORNOGRAPHY IN
THESE KIND OF POLITICAL WAYS IN
A WAY THAT HAS A HISTORY GOING
BACK TO THE ORIGIN OF PRINT
HISTORY WHERE PORNOGRAPHY WAS A
POLITICAL IDIOM TO ATTACK
HIGHER UPS LIKE ELITES, KINGS,
THE CHURCH.
SO THERE'S A TRADITION OF
PORNOGRAPHY I THOUGHT HUSTLER
WAS CONTINUING.
SO ANYWAY, LARRY DOES FASCINATE
ME.
Steve says AND WE HAD THE
SIGNIFICANT FREE SPEECH CASE
BEFORE THE COURTS IN THE UNITED
STATES.
I HAVE TO ASK YOU ABOUT ANOTHER
MAN WHO IS EXERCISING HIS FREE
SPEECH RIGHTS THESE DAYS AS
PERHAPS NO ONE HAS IN DECADES
AND DECADES IN AMERICAN LIFE.
AND THAT'S DONALD TRUMP.
DOES HE FALL INTO ONE OF THOSE
CATEGORIES OF MEN THAT YOU FIND
VERY COMPELLING.
Laura says GOSH, THAT'S A TOUGH
QUESTION.
WEIRDLY HAVE BEEN WORKING ON A
BOOK ON NARCISSISM WHICH I KEEP
PUT EIGHT SIDE TO WORK OPPOSITE
OTHER THINGS.
I HAD THE LINE BEFORE HE WAS
PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN THAT HE
WAS PATIENT ZERO OF NARCISSISM.
BUT IT'S SUCH A CLICHE TO SAY
THAT NOW OR THAT HE IS THE ID OF
THE REPUBLICAN PARTY.
I FIND HIM SCARY AND SYSTEMATIC
OF SOME OF THE PROBLEMS OF
AMERICAN CULTURE, HAVING TO DO
WITH IMMIGRATION, RACE AND ALL
OF THESE THINGS.
I GUESS AT SOME LEVEL ALL OF
THESE FIGURES LIKE LARRY FLYNN
INCLUDED, COMPEL ME IN SOME WAY
IT SPOKE TO SOMETHING IN ME
THAT I COULDN'T ARTICULATE.
I COULDN'T SEE ANY OF THAT WITH
DONALD TRUMP.
THERE'S JUST NO POINT OF
CONNECTION I HAVE WITH HIM.
HE DOESN'T FASCINATE ME.
KIND OF REPELS ME.
SO HE'S NOT SOMEBODY I COULD
WRITE ABOUT OR WOULD HAVE
ANYTHING INTERESTING TO SAY
ABOUT, OBVIOUSLY.
Steve says HOW ABOUT CLINTON.
Laura continues CLINTON.
NOW YOU ARE TALKING MY LANGUAGE.
CLINTON IS INCREDIBLY
CHARISMATIC.
AGAIN, A LOT OF THE CLICHES IS
IT'S HIS NEEDINESS, NEED TO BE
LOVED.
EVERYBODY THAT HAS BEEN IN A
ROOM WITH CLINTON AND I HAVE
MET SOME OF OF THE PEOPLE, TALK
ABOUT THE CLINTON EFFECT.
I GUESS THERE IS SOMETHING ABOUT
CHARM OR CHARISMA.
AND LARRY FLYNT I FOUND TO BE
CHARMING, IN HIS WAY -- VIEWERS
DON'T KNOW, HE HAS BEEN STUCK IN
A WHEELCHAIR FOR THE LAST 20 OR
30 YEARS.
I MEAN DESPITE BEING, AS HE
WOULD PUT IT, A CRIPPLE, HE IS A
VERY CHARISMATIC FIGURE, AS IS
CLINTON.
I THINK THE PEOPLE I WROTE ABOUT
THERE'S SOMETHING CHARISMATIC
ABOUT THEM.
Steve says YOU HAVE AN ESSAY ON
HILLARY AND YOU WROTE OF HER AS
A SIGNIFICANT INSTRUMENT FOR
CALIBRATING MALE ANXIETY.
TELL US WHAT YOU MEAN BY THAT.
Laura says WELL, I SPENT QUITE SOME
TIME READING ALMOST EVERY RIGHT
WING BIOGRAPHY OF HILLARY THAT
I COULD FIND INCLUDING ONE THAT
CAME WITH MY OWN VOODOO DOLL.
HAD A TITLE LIKE STICK HER
BEFORE SHE STICKS YOU.
SO I WAS IN THE TRENCHES WITH
THE RIGHT WING BIOGRAPHIES.
THE THING I FOUND WHICH WAS
KIND OF FASCINATING IS EVERY
SINGLE ONE OF THEM DIDN'T TALK
ABOUT HER POLITICS AS MUCH AS
THEY TALKED ABOUT HER BODILY IN
ADEQUACIES.
HER CALVES, HER HAIR, LUMPY
THIS, LUMPY THAT.
IT WAS ALMOST LIKE -- I MADE A
JOKE ABOUT OPENING -- EXPECTING
TO TURN A PAGE AND FIND
CATALOGUE OF HER MOLES AS AN
INSIGHT INTO HER POLITICAL
PROGRAM.
SO THERE WAS SOMETHING ABOUT THE
ATTENTION TO HER BODY AS THIS
ALMOST, LIKE, SMOTHERING
THREATENING ENTITY TO THESE GUYS
WHO ARE ALSO VERY WHIPPED UP
POLITICALLY ABOUT THE KIND OF
THREAT SHE POSED THAT INTERESTED
ME AND INTERESTED ME IN AN
ALMOST PSYCHO ANALYTIC WAY ABOUT
MALE, FEAR OF THE
SMOTHERING MOTHER, ALL
EMPOWERING MOTHER AND SYMBOLIC
OF THE WAY POWER RELATIONS HAVE
CHANGED.
THIS PROSPECT OF A WOMAN RUNNING
THE WORLD IS VERY, YOU KNOW,
QUITE POSSIBLE AT THIS POINT AND
I THINK THIS IS VERY THREATENING
FOR A LOT OF MEN.
I STILL THINK THERE IS SOMETHING
PSYCHO ANALYTIC ABOUT THE WAY
THAT, YOU KNOW, MEN GROW UP WITH
MOTHERS FOR THE MOST PART, WHO
RULE THEIR LIVES, THEIR BODIES,
RULE THE DOMESTIC SPHERE AND THE
IDEA OF A WOMAN RUNNING THE
GEOPOLITICAL SPHERE AS WELL JUST
DOES PROVOKE THESE WEIRD
HYSTERICAL RESPONSES.
Steve says LET'S NUDGE OUR WAY
OVER TO SAYING THE UNSALEABLE.
BECAUSE YOU HAVE HAD SOME
EXPERIENCE WITH THIS THAT I WANT
TO TOUCH ON.
ONE OF OUR EARLIER BOOKS WAS
HOW TO BECOME A SCANDAL.
ALMOST AS IF PRO PRO -- YOU
BECAME THE SUBJECT OF ONE
YOURSELF.
WHAT EXACTLY WAS IT THAT YOU
WROTE THAT CAUSED SO MUCH --
The caption changes to “The never-ending story of men and women. Saying the unsayable.”
Laura says GOOD PRONUNCIATION.
WELL I WAS WRITING ABOUT WHAT
ARE CALLED THE NEW RELATIONS
POLICIES ON MY CAMPUS, MEANING
PROFESSORS AND STUDENTS BEING
PROHIBITED FROM DATING.
AND THEN BEYOND THAT, THIS KIND
OF CLIMATE, THIS IS ABOUT A YEAR
AGO, ON HAVING TO DO WITH THE
INCREASING SENSE OF
VICTIMIZATION THAT STUDENTS HAVE
AND WANTING TO BE PROTECTED FROM
THINGS THAT WOULD OFFEND THEM.
THE IDEA OF TRIGGER WARNINGS
WAS IN THE NEWS AND I HAD SOME
EXPERIENCE ABOUT IT.
SO I WROTE THIS ESSAY.
IT WAS A KIND OF IRONIC TONE.
IT WAS IN A MAGAZINE CALLED THE
CHRONICLE OF HIGHER EDUCATION
WHICH WAS MOSTLY SOMETHING THAT
I BOUGHT AND CAMPUS
ADMINISTRATORS READ SO THEN THE
NEXT THING I HEAR, A FEW DAYS
AFTER THE ESSAY CAME OUT, THERE
WAS A PROTEST MARCH BY STUDENTS ON MY
CAMPUS, THEY WERE MARCHING TO
THE PRESIDENT'S OFFICE WITH A
PETITION, I GUESS, DEMANDING
THAT I BE CENSURED OR THE
UNIVERSITY STAND UP AND DEFEND
ITS POLICIES AGAINST MY ATTACK
AND THEY WERE NOT JUST
PROTESTING, THEY WERE CARRYING
MATTRESSES AND PILLOWS WHICH HAD
BECOME THE SYMBOL OF STUDENT ON
SEXUAL ASSAULT BECAUSE OF THE
COLUMBIA GIRL THAT WAS ON THE
MATTRESS, MATTRESS GIRL.
SO YOU KNOW, THIS WAS ALL VERY
WEIRD BECAUSE I HAD NOT BEEN
WRITING ABOUT THE STUDENT ON
STUDENT ASSAULT.
Steve says HOW DID THE
UNIVERSITY RESPOND TO THIS.
THIS IS NORTH WESTERN IN
CHICAGO.
Laura says YES OUTSIDE OF CHICAGO.
WELL, I MEAN THE WHOLE THING WAS
KIND OF ODD BECAUSE I MEAN, I
ASSUME WHEN I HEARD ABOUT THIS
PROTEST THAT THERE WASN'T GOING
TO BE A PROTEST BECAUSE THERE IS
A THING CALLED FREEDOM AND I AM
TENURED.
SO THE TITLE 9, TO SUMMARIZE
WHAT IT IS, ESPECIALLY FOR
PEOPLE OUT OF THE U.S., THE
FEDERAL GOVERNMENT AND THE
DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION HAVE GOT
THIS THING CALLED TITLE 9 WHICH
IS SUPPOSE TO DO PREVENT GENDER
DISCRIMINATION ON CAMPUSES BUT
IT'S EXPAND TO DO DEAL WITH
SEXUAL ASSAULT.
WHAT HAPPENS IS STUDENTS PRESS
CHARGES TRYING TO EXPAND WHAT
TITLE 9 WOULD COVER INCLUDING
THE ARTICLE I WROTE HAD CREATED
A HOSTILE ENVIRONMENT TO THEM.
IF THAT'S CLEAR ENOUGH.
Steve says SURE.
Laura continues
SO THE UNIVERSITY HIRED
OUTSIDE LAWYERS BECAUSE
UNIVERSITIES ARE THREATENED
WITH LOSING FEDERAL FUNDING IF
THEY DON'T COMPLY WITH TITLE 9.
THEY SPEND -- IT'S ABOUT 72
DAYS, THEY HAD TWO REPORTS
CLEARING ME OF CHARGES, BUT YOU
KNOW, AFTER QUITE A LONG TIME.
AND I WROTE A SECOND ESSAY ABOUT
BEING BROUGHT UP ON TITLE 9
CHARGES AND NOBODY HAS WRITTEN
ABOUT IT BECAUSE YOU
ARE THREATENED WITH LOSING
YOUR JOB IF YOU DISCLOSE.
Steve says DO YOU THINK YOU
WOULD HAVE BEEN FIRED IF YOU
WERE NOT TENURED.
Laura says I DON'T THINK AT MY
UNIVERSITY I WOULD HAVE BEEN
FIRED BUT SINCE THE ESSAY CAME
OUT I GOT DOZENS AND DOZENS OF
LETTERS FROM PEOPLE BROUGHT UP
ON MORE CHARGES AND THEY ARE
TERRIFIED TO SPEAK OUT AND
PEOPLE AT SMALLER COLLEGES THAT
ARE MORE KIND OF UNDER THE
THUMB OF, LIKE, ADMINISTRATION
AND PRESIDENT, HAVE BEEN FIRED
FOR THINGS LIKE SWEARING IN
CLASS SO THERE'S JUST THIS
WHOLE NEW LEVEL OF WAYS IN
WHICH ADMINISTRATORS ARE TRYING
TO PROTECT STUDENTS AND IT'S
ENDED UP ENDANGERING FACULTY IN
TERMS OF JOBS.
Steve says LET’S FINISH WITH THIS.
WE ARE NOW IN AN ERA IN
UNIVERSITY ACROSS NORTH AMERICA,
AND I DON'T MEAN THIS IS IN
DESPAIR AGING WAY BUT WE ARE IN
A NEW ERA OF TRIGGER WARNINGS
AND SPACES AND THAT KIND OF
THING ON UNIVERSITY CAMPUSES NOW
AND I WONDER WHETHER YOU THINK
SOMETHING, YOU KNOW,
HISTORICALLY NEGATIVE IS
HAPPENING AS A RESULT OF THE NEW
ERA WE FIND OUR SIEVES NHL THE
POST SECONDARY WORLD?
The caption changes to “The never-ending story of men and women. How high the education?”
Laura says I DO THINK IT'S NEGATIVE.
AND I USE THE TERM
McCARTHYISM IN THE TITLE 9
ESSAY BECAUSE THE COMMANDS TO
NOT ADHERE TO FREE SPEECH OR
ACADEMIC SPEECH ARE INCREDIBLY
THREATENING AND SHORT SIGHTED
AND I UNDERSTAND THIS ARE
POLITICAL DEBATES ABOUT FREE
SPEECH AND PROTECTIONS FOR
MINORITY STUDENTS AND YOU KNOW,
I THINK THAT'S A LONGER DEBATE
THAN WE CAN GET INTO HERE BUT I
DO THINK THAT WHAT'S WEIRD
ABOUT THIS MOMENT IS THE WAY
THAT CAMPUS ADMINISTRATORS ARE
KIND OF SIDING WITH THE STUDENT
ACTIVISTS TO QUASH FACULTY
DISSENSION.
AND THAT I THINK IS VERY
DISTURBING.
I GOT CAUGHT UP IN THE MIDDLE
OF THAT MYSELF AND IT'S MADE ME
FEEL MORE LIKE AN ACTIVIST.
I MEAN, I'M SOMEBODY WHO WRITES
ESSAYS LIKE IN THE MEN BOOK.
I HAVE NEVER BEEN MUCH OF AN
ACTIVISTS BUT HAVING HEARD THE
KINDS OF THINGS FROM PEOPLE
AROUND THE COUNTRY AND IT'S ALL
HAPPENING BEHIND CLOSED DOORS,
IT SORT OF FEEL LIKE I HAVE TO
WRITE MORE ABOUT THIS.
Steve says WHEN YOU DO I LOOK
FORWARD TO READING IT.
WE ARE GRATEFUL YOU CAME ON TVO.
LAST TIME WE HAD YOU ON WAS
ABOUT EIGHT YEARS AGO.
WE LOOK FORWARD TO DOING THIS
AGAIN IN PERSON.
Laura says YES.
Steve concludes THANK YOU SO MUCH,
LAURA KIPNIS FOR JOINING US ON
THE LINE FROM NEW YORK CITY.
Laura says THANK YOU.
Steve says A CENTURY OF FEMINISM AND
RELATIONS BETWEEN MEN AND WOMEN
REMAIN A FRAUGHT TOPIC
AUTHOR LAURA KIPNIS KNOWS THAT
ALL TOO WELL
LAST YEAR FACING ANGRY
PROTESTS AT HER OWN UNIVERSITY
FOR A PROBING ESSAY SHE WROTE.
UNDAUNTED SHE JOIN US US NOW
WITH HER NORTHBOUND NEW BOOK,
“MEN: NOTES FROM AN ONGOING
INVESTIGATION.”
WITH THAT WE WELCOME LAURA
KIPNIS, PROFESSOR AT
NORTHWESTERN UNIVERSITY IN
CHICAGO.
YOU WERE ON 12 YEARS AGO.
YOU ARE ON AGAIN FOR ANOTHER
CONVERSATION.
Laura says THANK FOR HAVING ME ON.
UNDAUNTED.
THE LOGO.
She’s in her forties. She has short brown straight hair with an asymmetrical fringe and highlights. She wears a fitted black blazer over a grey blouse.
Steve says THERE ARE SOME PARTS
OF THE BOOK WHERE YOU USE BLUE
LANGUAGE.
I WANT TO TAKE THIS OPPORTUNITY
TO WARN PARENTS.
A quote appears on screen, under the title “ALL ABOUT ADAM.” The quote reads “Now that men have become less economically necessary and there’s less reason than ever to pretend to admire them, scorn for men has become the post-feminist fallback position, widely regarded as a badge of feistiness and independence. Nevertheless, men remain conduits to things a lot of women still deeply want: sex, love, babied, commitments...It’s a contradictory situation...but get a bunch of women in a room, add liquor, and jokes about men’s inadequacies fly like shrapnel. When it comes to dating, single men are dogs, infants, sex-obsessed, moral rodents or emotional incompetents. And once you finally land one, nothing much improves, since husbands are morons, selfish, workaholics, emotionally unavailable, and domestically unavailable. Single men lie and mislead to get sex, husbands have lost interest in sex entirely. Men are emotionally autistic, except for all the ones who want you to be their mother. Men can’t talk about their feelings! Except for all the ones who won’t shut up about them. They’re macho assholes, except when they’re wimps.” Quoted from “Laura Kipnis, ‘MEN’ (2015).”
Steve giggles and continues OKAY!
WELL, LAURA, GET OFF THE FENCE
AND TELL US WHAT YOU REALLY
THINK, FIRST OF ALL.
Laura says I WANT TO SAY THAT I WAS
JUST CHANNELING THE CULTURE
HERE.
I MYSELF HAVE COMPLETELY BENIGN
FEELINGS TOWARD ALL MEN.
Steve says A POINT WORTH
CLARIFYING THAT YOU ARE NOT.
DID WOMEN FEEL DIFFERENTLY ABOUT
MEN WHEN THEY WERE ECONOMICALLY
DEPENDENT ON THEM?
The caption changes to “Laura Kipnis. Author of the book Men.”
Then, it changes again to “The never-ending story of men and women. A tale of woes.”
Laura says I DON'T KNOW IF THEY FELT
DIFFERENTLY BUT THERE WERE LESS
VENUES FOR EXPRESSION OR
FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION.
IF YOU READ SOMEONE LIKE
DOROTHY PARKER THOUGH SHE WAS
ECONOMICALLY INDEPENDENT HER
SELF, I MEAN YOU CAN READ
PEOPLE FROM ALL THE GENERATIONS
WOMEN, I MEAN -- FROM ALL
THE 20th CENTURY AND HERE
THOSE KIND OF THINGS AT LEAST
IN THE SUBTEXT, IF NOT STATED
FORTHRIGHTLY.
I THINK THEY ARE PROBABLY STATED
MORE OPENLY NOW.
Steve says THERE SEEMS TO BE A
LOT OF SCORN NOW, THAT IS A
REGULAR FEATURE OF THE POST
FEMINIST POSITION.
WHY DO YOU THINK THAT IS.
Laura says I DO THINK THERE'S A SENSE
OF BEING FED UP WITH MEN THAT
YOU HEAR ARTICULATE ADD LOT
MORE.
IT MAY HAVE SOMETHING TO DO WITH
THE MORE ECONOMIC INDEPENDENCE
BUT I THINK IT ALSO HAS
SOMETHING TO DO WITH CHANGES IN
MALE CULTURE AS AS WELL AND WAYS
THAT MEN HAVE BECOME MORE --
MORE INDEPENDENT THEMSELVES AND
LESS LIKELY TO SIGN ON FOR SOME
OF THE TRADITIONAL ROLES THAT I
THINK A LOT OF WOMEN ACTUALLY
STILL WANT THEM TO PLAY, LIKE
FIANCE OR COMMITTED HUSBAND OR
BREAD WINNER.
SOME OF THOSE CHANGES ARE
ECONOMIC BUT I DO THINK THAT
THERE ARE CHANGES IN MEN'S
WILLINGNESS TO DEPART FROM THE
TRADITIONAL NARRATIVE TOO.
SO THERE'S MAYBE MORE MISMATCH
BETWEEN THE SEXES IN TERMS OF,
YOU KNOW, GETTING TOGETHER TO
SHARE SOME SORT OF COMMON
NARRATIVE.
Steve says BUT YOU DON'T DISLIKE
MEN YET YOU DO WRITE SOME STUFF
ABOUT THEY KNOW MEN THIS YOUR
BOOK MEN THAT NO MAN WOULD GET
AYE AWAY -- WOULD GET AWAY WITH
WRITING ABOUT WOMEN.
Laura says I DON'T KNOW IF YOU HAVE
READ SOME MALE NOVELISTS.
PHIL IMROTH, GREAT CHRONICLERS.
ALL GREAT WRITERS.
I THINK IT DEPENDS ON THE VENUE.
MEN HAVE BEEN SCATHING ABOUT
WOMEN OVER THE YEARS.
Steve says YOU WRITE WHAT
STRIKES ME MOST IS MY COVERT
ENVY OF MEN, INCLUDING ONES I
WOULD LIKE TO THRASH AND
DISMEMBER.
THAT'S A LITTLE CLOSE TO THE
EDGE, ISN'T IT, LAURA.
Laura says
OH, GOSH, I THOUGHT THAT WAS
AFTER FACIAL ATE.
IT WASN'T SO MUCH TRYING TO BE
POE LATE AS TO ARTICULATE THINGS
THAT I FEEL IS KIND OF DEEP FOR
ME.
I DON'T THINK I'M ALONE.
I THINK TO SOME EXTENT I'M
SPEAKING TO THINGS THAT MOST
WOMEN FEEL SOMEWHERE.
I TO THINK ON HE OWE I MEAN,
LET'S JUST GET OFF THE PRETENSE
ABOUT IT.
I THINK THAT FOR MEN AND WOMEN
IN THE CONTEXT OF
HETEROSEXUAL RELATIONS, LIKE I
SAID, THERE IS A LOT OF MUTUAL
DISAPPOINT AND KIND OF
ANTAGONISMS THAT GET EXPRESSED
IN DIFFERENT SORTS OF WAYS.
YOU KNOW, THE PASSAGE THAT YOU
READ AT THE BEGINNING IS A WAY
THAT WOMEN, IN THE GUISE OF
JOKING ABOUT MEN AND THEIR
FAILURE EXPRESS DISAPPOINTMENT.
BUT LOOK AT A NEW YORKER CARTOON
OR STAND UP COMEDIANS THEY ARE
SAYING A LOT OF THE SAME STUFF.
THERE'S A LOT OF VENUES AND
CONTEXTS WHERE IT GETS
ARTICULATED.
Steve says YOU DO HAVE A LINE
WHICH I HAVE TO GET
CLARIFICATION ON.
WOMEN TAKE MEN TOO SERIOUSLY AND
NOT SERIOUSLY ENOUGH.
WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?
Laura says WELL THE DISAPPOINTMENT
IF YOU READ IT, DIALECTICALLY,
THE EXPRESSION IS TO DIE FOR
SOMETHING THAT IS NOT BEING
FULFILLED.
I THINK IN THE CONTEXT OF
HETEROSEXUAL CULTURE THERE IS ON
THE PART OF WOMEN THE DESIRE FOR
MEN TO FULFILL, TO PLAY A ROLE
IN OUR LIVES, IN OUR ROMANTIC
LIVES, IN OUR FUTURES, IN OUR
DOMESTIC LIVES, ALL OF THAT, AND
TO THE EXTENT THAT MEN ARE
WILLING TO PLAY ALONG, OKAY,
THAT'S GREAT, BUT I DO THINK
MORE AND MORE BECAUSE OF A LOT
OF SHIFTING ISSUES IN THE
CULTURE AT LARGE, THE ECONOMIC
SHIFTS, WOMEN ENTERING THEIR
PROFESSIONS, YOU KNOW, ALL SORTS
OF STUFF, WOMEN LEAVING
MARRIAGES AT HIGHER RATES, THERE
JUST ARE THESE -- THERE'S A KIND
OF LEVEL OF FRACTIOUSNESS AND
MUTUAL SENSES, I THINKS, OF NOT
GETTING WHAT YOU WANT FROM THE
OTHER PERSON.
YOU KNOW, I THINK THAT -- FROM
THE OPPOSITE SEX, LET'S SAY.
SO I GUESS I WAS TRYING TO
ARTICULATE THAT WHILE ALSO, YOU
KNOW, ACKNOWLEDGING -- THIS LINE
YOU READ ABOUT ME SAYING I'M
ENVIOUS OF MEN.
I MEAN, I AM ENVIOUS OF A LOT OF
THE KINDS OF FREEDOMS THAT MEN
HAVE HAD OVER THE YEARS AT ALL
LEVELS.
YOU KNOW, THE KINDS OF MOBILITY,
CREATIVE SORTS OF FREEDOMS.
I MENTIONED AN AUTHOR, AN
AMAZING AUTHOR.
AND ALSO PRETTY MISOGYNIST.
Steve says YOU USED THE WORD
DISAPPOINTMENT A FEW TIMES
ALREADY.
I'LL THROW THIS OUT AS A THEORY.
WOMEN ARE SO DISAPPOINTED IN MEN
BECAUSE THERE JUST AREN'T MEN
WOULD ARE PRINCELY, RESOURCEFUL,
CONFIDENT, MAKE A GOOD LIVING,
NOT THREATENED BY STRONG WOMEN,
ONLY HAVE EYES FOR THE WOMAN
THAT HE IS WITH.
IN OTHER WORDS, THE PERFECT GUY
JUST NEVER EXISTS, NEVER HAS,
NEVER WILL, AND AS A RESULT,
WOMEN ARE DISAPPOINTED.
FAIR COMMENT.
Laura says
WELL, I LIKE TO AVOID STUPID
GENERALIZATIONS.
IT'S AN ISSUE FOR ALL OF US.
PEOPLE ARE CONTRADICTORY.
INCLUDING THE PEOPLE WE END UP
WITH AS MATES, LIFE PARTNERS,
SPOUSES, WHATEVER YOU WANT TO
CALL IT.
THAT'S A FAILURE OF THE PERSON
TO BE WHAT YOU WANT THEM TO BE.
I GUESS I'M BEING IRONIC ABOUT
THOSE FAILURES THROUGHOUT THE
BOOK, BUT YOU KNOW, THEY ARE
REAL.
I THINK WE ALL HAVE THESE KINDS
OF NOT REALISTIC DESIRES OF
OTHER PEOPLE AND YOU KNOW, THAT
ACCOUNTS FOR A LOT OF, LIKE I
SAY, MARITAL DISCORD THAT YOU
SEE AROUND US.
Steve says OKAY.
ONE OF THE THINGS I KIND OF
LIKE, IS YOUR, I GUESS,
CONFESSION IS THE WORD TO USE
HERE, THAT YOU ARE QUOTE DRAWN
TO MEN, DRAWN TO EXCESS TO MEN
WHO LAUGH TOO LOUD, DRINK TOO
MUCH, HAVE OFF KILTER POLITICS
AND IDEAS.
AFTER AS MANY BOOKS AS YOU HAVE
WRITTEN NOW, DO YOU HAVE ANY
IDEA WHY YOU ARE DRAWN TO SUCH
DISREPUTABLE CHARACTERS.
Laura says I THINK BECAUSE I'M SUCH A
DEMURE PERSON.
IT'S MY OTHER SIDE OF MYSELF
THAT I KEEP UNDER WRAPS I GUESS.
I MEAN, I CAN ONLY SPECULATE
BECAUSE I THINK THOSE SORTS OF
DEEP, YOU KNOW PARTS OF YOURSELF
ARE NOT MAYBE ONES THAT YOU HAVE
ACCESS TO.
I GUESS I'VE GOTTEN ALONG ENOUGH
IN YEARS THAT I CAN LOOK BACK
AND SEE A SORT OF PATTERN.
Steve says I SHOULD HAVE RUSHED
TO THE DICTIONARY TO UNDER THE
NEXT THING THAT YOU WROTE HERE
BUT I DIDN'T BECAUSE I FIGURED
I'D ASK YOU DIRECTLY.
YOU CALL SOME OF THESE MEN, IS
IT PHALLOCRATIC DIVAS.
WHAT DOES IT MEAN.
The caption changes to “The never-ending story of men and women. Phallocratic divas.”
Laura says I GUESS IT IS PHALLOCENTRIC,
ELEVATING THEM TO THE KINGLY
POSITION THAT MEN WOULD WANT IT
TO BE.
Steve says HOW DIFFERENT IS THAT
KIND OF MAIL DIVA FROM HIS
FEMALE COUNTER PART IN.
Laura says
I MEAN, IT'S FUNNY YOU PICK
ON THAT PHRASE BECAUSE TO MY
MIND THERE'S A HUMOUR IN THE
FORMULATION BECAUSE DIVA IS WE
THINK OF A FEMALE FIGURE LIKE
THE OPERA FIGURE, SO TO CALL A
MAN A DIVA IS ALREADY KIND OF
FEMME NICING HIM BUT TO CALL
HIM A PHALLOCRATIC DIVA GAVE ME
PLEASURE BECAUSE IT'S A NEW
OXYMORON.
YOU PICKED OUT A MISH MASH OF
GENDER POSITIONS THAT DON'T
EXACTLY GO TOGETHER BUT YET I
THOUGHT WERE FUN.
IT'S LIKE THE TERM MALE HYSTERIC
WHICH IS ANOTHER TERM I'M FOND
OF.
WE THINK OF HYSTERIA AS A FEMALE
TRAIT.
Steve says I'VE GOT TO CONFESS,
ONE OF THE MORE INTERESTING
CHAPTERS IN THE BOOK, I
THOUGHT, IS WHERE YOU SAID SOME
PRETTY NICE THINGS ABOUT A GUY
NAMED LARRY LIBERTARIAN.
LARRY FLYNT TORQUES THE BEST OF
MY KNOWLEDGE, PUBLICS ONE OF THE
RAUNCHIEST MAGAZINES IN AMERICAN
HISTORY, HUSBANDLER HUSTLER
MAGAZINE SO I AM CURIOUS WHAT
QUALITIES HE HAS THAT YOU FIND
INTERESTING AND COMPELLING.
Laura says I SHOULD SAY THAT I HAVE A
WEIRD HISTORY WITH LARRY FLYNT.
I HAD WRITTEN ABOUT HIM.
I GOT VERY INTERESTED IN HUSTLER
MAGAZINE AND THE WAY IT USES
CLASS, CLASS ANTAGONISM, USING
PROPERTIES, PARTICULARLY
FEMINIST PROPERTIES.
THE TIME I WAS WRITING IT THE
FEMINIST MOVEMENT BASS VERY BIG
AND I THOUGHT THEY WERE NOT
TAKING ACCOUNT OF CLASS AND THE
KINDS OF WAYS CLASS CIRCULATES
IN A MAGAZINE LIKE HUSTLER.
I WROTE THIS AND WEIRDLY IT GOT
READ BY LARRY FLINT.
HIS GOAT WRITER GAVE IT TO HIM.
I HEARD FROM THE GHOST WRITER
THAT LARRY FLYNT HAD LIKED IT,
WOULD I LIKE TO MEET HIM.
I DID END UP MEETING HIM.
ALSO, WEIRDLY, THE GHOST WRITER
IN WRITING HIS AUTOBIOGRAPHY
USED SOME OF MY STUFF ABOUT HIM
AND PUT IT IN LARRY'S VOICE, AS
IF LARRY WAS SAYING THE THINGS
I SAID IN THE ESSAY.
ONE OF THE THINGS I SAID IN THE
PIECE IS I WISH ALL MEN HAD BEEN
SUCCESS ACCEPT ABLE TO ADAPTING
MY FAN AT ATIES ABOUT THEM.
I SORT OF FANTASIZED ABOUT WHO I
THOUGHT HE SHOULD BE AND HE
WON'T WITH IT WHICH I THOUGHT
WAS SORT OF CHARMING ON HIS
PART.
SO I WROTE A FEW OTHER THINGS
ABOUT HIM OVER THE YEARS AND MET
HIM A FEW TIMES.
I JUST BECAME FASCINATED WITH
HIM AS A FIGURE BECAUSE HE'S --
YOU KNOW, USES PORNOGRAPHY IN
THESE KIND OF POLITICAL WAYS IN
A WAY THAT HAS A HISTORY GOING
BACK TO THE ORIGIN OF PRINT
HISTORY WHERE PORNOGRAPHY WAS A
POLITICAL IDIOM TO ATTACK
HIGHER UPS LIKE ELITES, KINGS,
THE CHURCH.
SO THERE'S A TRADITION OF
PORNOGRAPHY I THOUGHT HUSTLER
WAS CONTINUING.
SO ANYWAY, LARRY DOES FASCINATE
ME.
Steve says AND WE HAD THE
SIGNIFICANT FREE SPEECH CASE
BEFORE THE COURTS IN THE UNITED
STATES.
I HAVE TO ASK YOU ABOUT ANOTHER
MAN WHO IS EXERCISING HIS FREE
SPEECH RIGHTS THESE DAYS AS
PERHAPS NO ONE HAS IN DECADES
AND DECADES IN AMERICAN LIFE.
AND THAT'S DONALD TRUMP.
DOES HE FALL INTO ONE OF THOSE
CATEGORIES OF MEN THAT YOU FIND
VERY COMPELLING.
Laura says GOSH, THAT'S A TOUGH
QUESTION.
WEIRDLY HAVE BEEN WORKING ON A
BOOK ON NARCISSISM WHICH I KEEP
PUT EIGHT SIDE TO WORK OPPOSITE
OTHER THINGS.
I HAD THE LINE BEFORE HE WAS
PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN THAT HE
WAS PATIENT ZERO OF NARCISSISM.
BUT IT'S SUCH A CLICHE TO SAY
THAT NOW OR THAT HE IS THE ID OF
THE REPUBLICAN PARTY.
I FIND HIM SCARY AND SYSTEMATIC
OF SOME OF THE PROBLEMS OF
AMERICAN CULTURE, HAVING TO DO
WITH IMMIGRATION, RACE AND ALL
OF THESE THINGS.
I GUESS AT SOME LEVEL ALL OF
THESE FIGURES LIKE LARRY FLYNN
INCLUDED, COMPEL ME IN SOME WAY
IT SPOKE TO SOMETHING IN ME
THAT I COULDN'T ARTICULATE.
I COULDN'T SEE ANY OF THAT WITH
DONALD TRUMP.
THERE'S JUST NO POINT OF
CONNECTION I HAVE WITH HIM.
HE DOESN'T FASCINATE ME.
KIND OF REPELS ME.
SO HE'S NOT SOMEBODY I COULD
WRITE ABOUT OR WOULD HAVE
ANYTHING INTERESTING TO SAY
ABOUT, OBVIOUSLY.
Steve says HOW ABOUT CLINTON.
Laura continues CLINTON.
NOW YOU ARE TALKING MY LANGUAGE.
CLINTON IS INCREDIBLY
CHARISMATIC.
AGAIN, A LOT OF THE CLICHES IS
IT'S HIS NEEDINESS, NEED TO BE
LOVED.
EVERYBODY THAT HAS BEEN IN A
ROOM WITH CLINTON AND I HAVE
MET SOME OF OF THE PEOPLE, TALK
ABOUT THE CLINTON EFFECT.
I GUESS THERE IS SOMETHING ABOUT
CHARM OR CHARISMA.
AND LARRY FLYNT I FOUND TO BE
CHARMING, IN HIS WAY -- VIEWERS
DON'T KNOW, HE HAS BEEN STUCK IN
A WHEELCHAIR FOR THE LAST 20 OR
30 YEARS.
I MEAN DESPITE BEING, AS HE
WOULD PUT IT, A CRIPPLE, HE IS A
VERY CHARISMATIC FIGURE, AS IS
CLINTON.
I THINK THE PEOPLE I WROTE ABOUT
THERE'S SOMETHING CHARISMATIC
ABOUT THEM.
Steve says YOU HAVE AN ESSAY ON
HILLARY AND YOU WROTE OF HER AS
A SIGNIFICANT INSTRUMENT FOR
CALIBRATING MALE ANXIETY.
TELL US WHAT YOU MEAN BY THAT.
Laura says WELL, I SPENT QUITE SOME
TIME READING ALMOST EVERY RIGHT
WING BIOGRAPHY OF HILLARY THAT
I COULD FIND INCLUDING ONE THAT
CAME WITH MY OWN VOODOO DOLL.
HAD A TITLE LIKE STICK HER
BEFORE SHE STICKS YOU.
SO I WAS IN THE TRENCHES WITH
THE RIGHT WING BIOGRAPHIES.
THE THING I FOUND WHICH WAS
KIND OF FASCINATING IS EVERY
SINGLE ONE OF THEM DIDN'T TALK
ABOUT HER POLITICS AS MUCH AS
THEY TALKED ABOUT HER BODILY IN
ADEQUACIES.
HER CALVES, HER HAIR, LUMPY
THIS, LUMPY THAT.
IT WAS ALMOST LIKE -- I MADE A
JOKE ABOUT OPENING -- EXPECTING
TO TURN A PAGE AND FIND
CATALOGUE OF HER MOLES AS AN
INSIGHT INTO HER POLITICAL
PROGRAM.
SO THERE WAS SOMETHING ABOUT THE
ATTENTION TO HER BODY AS THIS
ALMOST, LIKE, SMOTHERING
THREATENING ENTITY TO THESE GUYS
WHO ARE ALSO VERY WHIPPED UP
POLITICALLY ABOUT THE KIND OF
THREAT SHE POSED THAT INTERESTED
ME AND INTERESTED ME IN AN
ALMOST PSYCHO ANALYTIC WAY ABOUT
MALE, FEAR OF THE
SMOTHERING MOTHER, ALL
EMPOWERING MOTHER AND SYMBOLIC
OF THE WAY POWER RELATIONS HAVE
CHANGED.
THIS PROSPECT OF A WOMAN RUNNING
THE WORLD IS VERY, YOU KNOW,
QUITE POSSIBLE AT THIS POINT AND
I THINK THIS IS VERY THREATENING
FOR A LOT OF MEN.
I STILL THINK THERE IS SOMETHING
PSYCHO ANALYTIC ABOUT THE WAY
THAT, YOU KNOW, MEN GROW UP WITH
MOTHERS FOR THE MOST PART, WHO
RULE THEIR LIVES, THEIR BODIES,
RULE THE DOMESTIC SPHERE AND THE
IDEA OF A WOMAN RUNNING THE
GEOPOLITICAL SPHERE AS WELL JUST
DOES PROVOKE THESE WEIRD
HYSTERICAL RESPONSES.
Steve says LET'S NUDGE OUR WAY
OVER TO SAYING THE UNSALEABLE.
BECAUSE YOU HAVE HAD SOME
EXPERIENCE WITH THIS THAT I WANT
TO TOUCH ON.
ONE OF OUR EARLIER BOOKS WAS
HOW TO BECOME A SCANDAL.
ALMOST AS IF PRO PRO -- YOU
BECAME THE SUBJECT OF ONE
YOURSELF.
WHAT EXACTLY WAS IT THAT YOU
WROTE THAT CAUSED SO MUCH --
The caption changes to “The never-ending story of men and women. Saying the unsayable.”
Laura says GOOD PRONUNCIATION.
WELL I WAS WRITING ABOUT WHAT
ARE CALLED THE NEW RELATIONS
POLICIES ON MY CAMPUS, MEANING
PROFESSORS AND STUDENTS BEING
PROHIBITED FROM DATING.
AND THEN BEYOND THAT, THIS KIND
OF CLIMATE, THIS IS ABOUT A YEAR
AGO, ON HAVING TO DO WITH THE
INCREASING SENSE OF
VICTIMIZATION THAT STUDENTS HAVE
AND WANTING TO BE PROTECTED FROM
THINGS THAT WOULD OFFEND THEM.
THE IDEA OF TRIGGER WARNINGS
WAS IN THE NEWS AND I HAD SOME
EXPERIENCE ABOUT IT.
SO I WROTE THIS ESSAY.
IT WAS A KIND OF IRONIC TONE.
IT WAS IN A MAGAZINE CALLED THE
CHRONICLE OF HIGHER EDUCATION
WHICH WAS MOSTLY SOMETHING THAT
I BOUGHT AND CAMPUS
ADMINISTRATORS READ SO THEN THE
NEXT THING I HEAR, A FEW DAYS
AFTER THE ESSAY CAME OUT, THERE
WAS A PROTEST MARCH BY STUDENTS ON MY
CAMPUS, THEY WERE MARCHING TO
THE PRESIDENT'S OFFICE WITH A
PETITION, I GUESS, DEMANDING
THAT I BE CENSURED OR THE
UNIVERSITY STAND UP AND DEFEND
ITS POLICIES AGAINST MY ATTACK
AND THEY WERE NOT JUST
PROTESTING, THEY WERE CARRYING
MATTRESSES AND PILLOWS WHICH HAD
BECOME THE SYMBOL OF STUDENT ON
SEXUAL ASSAULT BECAUSE OF THE
COLUMBIA GIRL THAT WAS ON THE
MATTRESS, MATTRESS GIRL.
SO YOU KNOW, THIS WAS ALL VERY
WEIRD BECAUSE I HAD NOT BEEN
WRITING ABOUT THE STUDENT ON
STUDENT ASSAULT.
Steve says HOW DID THE
UNIVERSITY RESPOND TO THIS.
THIS IS NORTH WESTERN IN
CHICAGO.
Laura says YES OUTSIDE OF CHICAGO.
WELL, I MEAN THE WHOLE THING WAS
KIND OF ODD BECAUSE I MEAN, I
ASSUME WHEN I HEARD ABOUT THIS
PROTEST THAT THERE WASN'T GOING
TO BE A PROTEST BECAUSE THERE IS
A THING CALLED FREEDOM AND I AM
TENURED.
SO THE TITLE 9, TO SUMMARIZE
WHAT IT IS, ESPECIALLY FOR
PEOPLE OUT OF THE U.S., THE
FEDERAL GOVERNMENT AND THE
DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION HAVE GOT
THIS THING CALLED TITLE 9 WHICH
IS SUPPOSE TO DO PREVENT GENDER
DISCRIMINATION ON CAMPUSES BUT
IT'S EXPAND TO DO DEAL WITH
SEXUAL ASSAULT.
WHAT HAPPENS IS STUDENTS PRESS
CHARGES TRYING TO EXPAND WHAT
TITLE 9 WOULD COVER INCLUDING
THE ARTICLE I WROTE HAD CREATED
A HOSTILE ENVIRONMENT TO THEM.
IF THAT'S CLEAR ENOUGH.
Steve says SURE.
Laura continues
SO THE UNIVERSITY HIRED
OUTSIDE LAWYERS BECAUSE
UNIVERSITIES ARE THREATENED
WITH LOSING FEDERAL FUNDING IF
THEY DON'T COMPLY WITH TITLE 9.
THEY SPEND -- IT'S ABOUT 72
DAYS, THEY HAD TWO REPORTS
CLEARING ME OF CHARGES, BUT YOU
KNOW, AFTER QUITE A LONG TIME.
AND I WROTE A SECOND ESSAY ABOUT
BEING BROUGHT UP ON TITLE 9
CHARGES AND NOBODY HAS WRITTEN
ABOUT IT BECAUSE YOU
ARE THREATENED WITH LOSING
YOUR JOB IF YOU DISCLOSE.
Steve says DO YOU THINK YOU
WOULD HAVE BEEN FIRED IF YOU
WERE NOT TENURED.
Laura says I DON'T THINK AT MY
UNIVERSITY I WOULD HAVE BEEN
FIRED BUT SINCE THE ESSAY CAME
OUT I GOT DOZENS AND DOZENS OF
LETTERS FROM PEOPLE BROUGHT UP
ON MORE CHARGES AND THEY ARE
TERRIFIED TO SPEAK OUT AND
PEOPLE AT SMALLER COLLEGES THAT
ARE MORE KIND OF UNDER THE
THUMB OF, LIKE, ADMINISTRATION
AND PRESIDENT, HAVE BEEN FIRED
FOR THINGS LIKE SWEARING IN
CLASS SO THERE'S JUST THIS
WHOLE NEW LEVEL OF WAYS IN
WHICH ADMINISTRATORS ARE TRYING
TO PROTECT STUDENTS AND IT'S
ENDED UP ENDANGERING FACULTY IN
TERMS OF JOBS.
Steve says LET’S FINISH WITH THIS.
WE ARE NOW IN AN ERA IN
UNIVERSITY ACROSS NORTH AMERICA,
AND I DON'T MEAN THIS IS IN
DESPAIR AGING WAY BUT WE ARE IN
A NEW ERA OF TRIGGER WARNINGS
AND SPACES AND THAT KIND OF
THING ON UNIVERSITY CAMPUSES NOW
AND I WONDER WHETHER YOU THINK
SOMETHING, YOU KNOW,
HISTORICALLY NEGATIVE IS
HAPPENING AS A RESULT OF THE NEW
ERA WE FIND OUR SIEVES NHL THE
POST SECONDARY WORLD?
The caption changes to “The never-ending story of men and women. How high the education?”
Laura says I DO THINK IT'S NEGATIVE.
AND I USE THE TERM
McCARTHYISM IN THE TITLE 9
ESSAY BECAUSE THE COMMANDS TO
NOT ADHERE TO FREE SPEECH OR
ACADEMIC SPEECH ARE INCREDIBLY
THREATENING AND SHORT SIGHTED
AND I UNDERSTAND THIS ARE
POLITICAL DEBATES ABOUT FREE
SPEECH AND PROTECTIONS FOR
MINORITY STUDENTS AND YOU KNOW,
I THINK THAT'S A LONGER DEBATE
THAN WE CAN GET INTO HERE BUT I
DO THINK THAT WHAT'S WEIRD
ABOUT THIS MOMENT IS THE WAY
THAT CAMPUS ADMINISTRATORS ARE
KIND OF SIDING WITH THE STUDENT
ACTIVISTS TO QUASH FACULTY
DISSENSION.
AND THAT I THINK IS VERY
DISTURBING.
I GOT CAUGHT UP IN THE MIDDLE
OF THAT MYSELF AND IT'S MADE ME
FEEL MORE LIKE AN ACTIVIST.
I MEAN, I'M SOMEBODY WHO WRITES
ESSAYS LIKE IN THE MEN BOOK.
I HAVE NEVER BEEN MUCH OF AN
ACTIVISTS BUT HAVING HEARD THE
KINDS OF THINGS FROM PEOPLE
AROUND THE COUNTRY AND IT'S ALL
HAPPENING BEHIND CLOSED DOORS,
IT SORT OF FEEL LIKE I HAVE TO
WRITE MORE ABOUT THIS.
Steve says WHEN YOU DO I LOOK
FORWARD TO READING IT.
WE ARE GRATEFUL YOU CAME ON TVO.
LAST TIME WE HAD YOU ON WAS
ABOUT EIGHT YEARS AGO.
WE LOOK FORWARD TO DOING THIS
AGAIN IN PERSON.
Laura says YES.
Steve concludes THANK YOU SO MUCH,
LAURA KIPNIS FOR JOINING US ON
THE LINE FROM NEW YORK CITY.
Laura says THANK YOU.